Curse

Evilsod · Jul 06, 2007, 03:30 AM // 03:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Burning Blade

Splatter Mcnasty,

Please just tell us your IGN so you wont have to play with us ever!

He is the lowest rung of the player ladder. 1 who wants to pug, but can't face up to the fact that pugs leaders aren't all elitist. So instead of displaying the build he is using, displays something else, he then attempts to call other people selfish...

People who can't justify there own build to another person have no place in my pug group (if i ever do actually make 1). If someone asks 'why do you have Tiger Stance and not Flail?', its not because they're been pure evil and are looking for any excuse to kick you... its probably because they just want to know and see if you actually have a reason. Hell, maybe they'll look into it another time themselves.

Servant of Kali · Jul 06, 2007, 09:46 AM // 09:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by martialis

You guys really need to take a long, hard look at how much you suck. If there is even the possibility that you will find players better than your heroes, then you need to improve your heroes, and stop being mean to other people.

Wait, you tell me that i suck, while you havent even read my post properly, where i explicitly said that I'm NOT using PUGs because they are better than Heroes?

If you intend to criticize people, then at least use valid arguments.

Quote:

The only reason to play with other people is community. In that case, pinging builds is a necessary distraction, at best. So - be nice, since you have nothing else to contribute, and don't act like you're superior to 7 other random people.

If im the group leader, it's more than likely that im superior in game knowledge to 7 other people, unless some of those are really good, in which case they WILL agree with me, problem solved. In 2 years of PvPing and PvEing, i don't recall a SINGLE time that an experienced player had a problem with how i handle things. Actually, most of them were quite glad that the group was organized and efficient, and every time i kicked someone they rejoiced because they understood why and agreed.
Anyway, this is exactly what i said under "4)". If you have problem with authority - leave. If you stay, respect my authorite, as Cartman would say

I do have a lot to contribute, if you think i don't, why on earth did you join my group? Just quit it, we are both better off.

And just because im not expecting perfection in a PUG group does not mean that i will jeopardize the whole mission for every other player (other than you). If you want to bring utterly crap build that's fine, but it will not be in my group. I will probably let you stay even if you're heal monk with no e-management, but i will not let you stay if you use Mending because i can't stand it.

Quote:

I suggest listening to Jetdoc. He seems smart.

I'm smart. But you disagree with me because you're scared of pinging your build, which means that even though im smart you'll disregard what i say.

TheRaven · Jul 06, 2007, 02:05 PM // 14:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Servant of Kali

If im the group leader, it's more than likely that im superior in game knowledge to 7 other people, unless some of those are really good, in which case they WILL agree with me, problem solved. In 2 years of PvPing and PvEing, i don't recall a SINGLE time that an experienced player had a problem with how i handle things. Actually, most of them were quite glad that the group was organized and efficient, and every time i kicked someone they rejoiced because they understood why and agreed.
Anyway, this is exactly what i said under "4)". If you have problem with authority - leave. If you stay, respect my authorite, as Cartman would say

I do have a lot to contribute, if you think i don't, why on earth did you join my group? Just quit it, we are both better off.

Kali, you sound like the type of player I enjoy PUGing with. As a frequent pugger myself, I'll explain a bit about my playstyle and what I'm looking for in a pug.

First, I'm rarely the leader. I hate leading pugs. Someone always gets mad for stupid reasons.

If I'm pugging, its so that I can enjoy the mission and the company of others. Yes, I realize that my heroes can probably do a better job, so don't even start with that argument. Not all of us who pug do so because their heroes suck. However in areas like The Deep or FoW, heroes are not usually a viable option. You need other players and if you're in a small guild you need to pug.

I'll look for pugs that sound like they have similiar goals to mine. If I want masters on Nahpui Quarter, I'll look for a pug advertising itself as a masters group and I expect the leader to question the builds of the folks joining and weed out the players who don't care about masters, but only want to chest hunt or "just get me thru this stupid mission". A good leader should only accept folks with similiar goals. The pug will be more likely to succeed and the players will have a more enjoyable time.

I don't want to waste my time with uptight Elitist jerks. I'm playing this game to relax and enjoy myself, not to get cussed out because my Ele didn't get off that MS spell in time. If I see "GLF more 4/8 EXP ONLY NO NOOBS!!!!!!!!!!!!", I won't join. I'm not a noob, but I also don't want to waste time with a leader who appears to be 13 years old with the immaturity to match.

A leader should be flexible as well. (to a point). I get frustrated with leaders who take forever and a day to form a group when it just isn't necessary. I was doing Sunjiang District last month and joined a group which brought the number to 7/8. We had 1 monk but the leader wanted a 2nd monk. We sat around spamming "glf monk to go" for a half hour in a rather deserted town with no monks. Several times I suggested that we take a hero only to be shot down with "NO HEROES!!!!!" each time. I finally left. It was obvious the leader wasn't going to budge and I didn't feel like waiting any longer.

Age · Jul 06, 2007, 10:29 PM // 22:29

I pug and prefer to as Anet forces me to do missions to get end game and I prefer real ppl to AI.It make for a much interesting game the pinging and writing on the radar.I forgot to mention this is my first post.Then i have to get to x,yz palce as well so I have to do missions.

Healers Wisper · Jul 06, 2007, 10:47 PM // 22:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Servant of Kali

If im the group leader, it's more than likely that im superior in game knowledge to 7 other people, unless some of those are really good, in which case they WILL agree with me, problem solved. In 2 years of PvPing and PvEing, i don't recall a SINGLE time that an experienced player had a problem with how i handle things. Actually, most of them were quite glad that the group was organized and efficient, and every time i kicked someone they rejoiced because they understood why and agreed.
Anyway, this is exactly what i said under "4)". If you have problem with authority - leave. If you stay, respect my authorite, as Cartman would say

Ok this is a bit much. I am an experienced player. Last night decided to PuG everyone pinged build no prob. The leader critisized my build, which I use effectively and need verylittle assistance with. I made my case and they took this approach. We were doing vizunah. Got Kicked by leader. Joined another PuG same thing happened, but not kicked this time (leader was a little less like cartman). Enter mission met up with first group. I was last man standing and managed to get whole party throught mission with master as everyone dies at 2nd to last stand (solo ele build works yet again).

Point being just because you invite first doesn't = best in group.

Halmyr · Jul 06, 2007, 11:13 PM // 23:13

When I'm a leader of a group, I usually will be asking too see builds for two major reasons:

1) To make sure every one has a basic built (attunement spell on elementist for example) and to maybe point out a player in the right decision. And also to know what to expect once were in the field.

I am a very patient person and will put up with a lot. So I don't mind asking people. If we need some specifique skill, or to ask that elementist to remove his pet. I'm also very open to builds, so I don't usually ask for them to switch 6/8 skill, maybe 1 or two if need be.

2) To see new built, I love seeing other people unique and different builds, For example, on of my guildie showed me his mesmer spike. I’ll tell you, it was not a terribly powerful spike, BUT, it could be done almost none stop for damage.
Very different and original.

But I find the biggest factor in a party success, is not the skill of the party, but the skill of a leader. In party were no one was taking charge, we usually failed, and those were some one took charge, we succeeded most of the time.

I was out farming with some guildies, and one of them did not realize we were in hard mode until 10 min into the run. Or the time we defeated Dwayna Acolyte with 1 monk in a party of 7 ( no resto rit or e/mo healer). The reasons we defeated those was because of my leadership, I was out there, taking charge, saying were to go, what to do and when, that is what I find to be the most decisive factor.

Builds and Skill of single player may some ties interfere with that, but a good leader will adapt.

I will let a player use his built, but I may ask him to change one or two things and explain to him why its more effective.

It may be my party, but I'm not the only player here, this is teamwork, and it requires sacrifice for the part of every one.

When I'm not the leader, I don't mind pinging my built, and of the leader ask me to change something, I will try to adapt to the best of my ability. I'm not the leader, but I will trust him in his judgment, well most of the time anyways

Malice Black · Jul 07, 2007, 01:21 AM // 01:21

If/when I play I'm an easy going person, my only request as a group leader is for everyone to bring a build they are comfortable using. I'm not into all this "must win at all cost" if thats how some people choose to play thats fine but I'd rather spend an hour doing a quest and have fun doing it then have the standard cookie cutter group and blast through it in 10 mins.

My view, take it or leave it..don't care either way.

against · Jul 07, 2007, 10:52 PM // 22:52

If by "elitist" you mean, "A person who doesn't want to waste time failing a mission due to a player being unable to apply common sense in the process of making a skill bar." Then, yes, I'm an elitist. Heroes and henchmen > you.

brian78wa · Jul 08, 2007, 12:16 AM // 00:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr Strangelove

I ask everyone to ping their build in HM, and start by pinging my own. There's nothing wrong with trying to coordinate a groups skillsets and help players make more efficient builds.

Usually the people who refuse are selfish pricks who I don't want in my group, or impatient jerks, who I also don't want in my group. Win-Win.

Heres the thing though. Whos to say that your builds are good. Maybe to others your builds suck. So why should someone use a build that others gave them just cause YOU think they work better?

Evilsod · Jul 08, 2007, 12:32 AM // 00:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by brian78wa

Heres the thing though. Whos to say that your builds are good. Maybe to others your builds suck. So why should someone use a build that others gave them just cause YOU think they work better?

Healthy debate never hurt anyone did it?

And to be fair some people seem to think using Barrage on the same skillbar as 1 or 2 Preperations is good... some people are just a bit dim and fill bars with stupid skill, then can't even justify it with a decent reason.

AscalonWarrior · Jul 08, 2007, 08:53 AM // 08:53

Happened to once, in AB.
Leader asked to ping my build.
Leader "No elite?"
Me "Nah, this build is just fine without an elite"
*kick from the group*

Really makes me sad to see something like that in AB

Servant of Kali · Jul 08, 2007, 10:49 AM // 10:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheRaven

If I see "GLF more 4/8 EXP ONLY NO NOOBS!!!!!!!!!!!!", I won't join. I'm not a noob, but I also don't want to waste time with a leader who appears to be 13 years old with the immaturity to match.

Yup.

Some signs of a good PUG group leader:
- Advertisement is done in a mature calm way. If it's a PvP arena such as Team Arena, the group leader will be more specific, such as "need this and that profession" etc, and will not type "we need one more, join in". If you see advertisement like the above one you mentioned, then the group leader is frustrated, impatient, and probably immature, which still means you can do the mission but the atmosphere might be unhealthy.
- He will not allow into a group people who type something like this in the public channel: "aaaaaah i can't do this mission someone please invite me". There is a very good reason why people like these have problems doing the mission, and it's not all about their skillbar.
- He will be interested in the well-being of a group, asking for pinging when he considers it needed, and will give feedback. He will kick those who are not worth the effort. If he points out why some skill you're using is bad, you can counter it with an argument, and if you cant, change it.
- He won't ask everyone for ping, in most cases, just few people who seem suspicious. A good group leader is able to guess (with high percentage) your build just by looking at your profession, title, your character name (yes that's right) and things you type in the chat.
- He talks. He doesnt just add people to the group and presses Enter button as soon as the group fills.
- If someone joins a group and pings a build without leader asking him, and the build was horrible, and group leader didn't react, that means the leader either doesn't care, or is insecure/not experienced enough to know why such a build is bad. In either case..
- If the group decides to have a Hero, the group leader will probably want to put his own there, because he knows what kind of Heroes people run, without insignias, runes, horrible skillbars etc, and he won't want to risk it. In case that he doesn't have a Hero set, he will ask you to ping your hero build as a must.
- He doesn't need to know everything about the mission. A group leader is a group leader, not a guide or tracker. Everyone should contribute.
- He is nice, awesome, and if you're a girl you want to marry him and have his kids.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Healers Wisper

Ok this is a bit much. I am an experienced player. Last night decided to PuG everyone pinged build no prob. The leader critisized my build, which I use effectively and need verylittle assistance with. I made my case and they took this approach. We were doing vizunah. Got Kicked by leader. Joined another PuG same thing happened, but not kicked this time

I don't know what build you use but I'd be very suspicious.

One of the signs of a bad build (unless Random arenas) is that it's self-sufficient and needs very little assistance. A good build will need a lot of assistance from the team, but will also give much more.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Halmyr

But I find the biggest factor in a party success, is not the skill of the party, but the skill of a leader. In party were no one was taking charge, we usually failed, and those were some one took charge, we succeeded most of the time.

Aha. A good leader is at least 30% of the team, no kidding. And not just in a game. I've played another game before this, and one could easily see there how much the leader means, even though there were 25 people in the team.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malice Black

my only request as a group leader is for everyone to bring a build they are comfortable using. I'm not into all this "must win at all cost" if thats how some people choose to play thats fine but I'd rather spend an hour doing a quest and have fun doing it

I always urge people to use builds they like playing, but there's always a line. You say you play for fun, but doing the same mission 10x isn't fun for most people. A healthy balance of fun and success is needed, and that is not possible if everyone brings horrible skillbars.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AscalonWarrior

Really makes me sad to see something like that in AB

I would kick you too.

Unless it's PvE and you explained to me that you didn't capture it yet. But there's a HUGE difference between PvP (even one in AB) and PvE.

Anyway, if that saddens you in AB you can always go play solo PvE with henchmen, who wont complain because they cant, and because their bars aint good either

AscalonWarrior · Jul 08, 2007, 11:22 AM // 11:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Servant of Kali

I would kick you too.

Unless it's PvE and you explained to me that you didn't capture it yet. But there's a HUGE difference between PvP (even one in AB) and PvE

I mean... Every good build doesn't have to contain an elite skill.

Servant of Kali · Jul 08, 2007, 11:34 AM // 11:34

Yes it does.

Show me a build which is better than the same build with an elite skill. The only thing which comes close is a Domination line which as some great skills bordering on the elite status.

But as i said, show me good non elite build.

AscalonWarrior · Jul 08, 2007, 11:45 AM // 11:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Servant of Kali

The only thing which comes close is a Domination line which as some great skills bordering on the elite status.

I was a domination Mesmer.

Evilsod · Jul 08, 2007, 11:51 AM // 11:51

Domination Mesmer is still no excuse... if you can't think of anythign to run, use Mantra of Recovery or some Energy Management elites.
A Mesmer NEVER has a reason to not bring an elite because no matter how good the rest of there bar is, MoR/Inspiration fit in anywhere.

Servant of Kali · Jul 08, 2007, 12:03 PM // 12:03

I'd still like to see the full skillbar before commenting.

AscalonWarrior · Jul 08, 2007, 12:09 PM // 12:09

Meh, ok let's do it like this. I'll shut up and put Energy Surge in that build. Guess I can now get a group.

zwei2stein · Jul 08, 2007, 12:47 PM // 12:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Servant of Kali

One of the signs of a bad build (unless Random arenas) is that it's self-sufficient and needs very little assistance. A good build will need a lot of assistance from the team, but will also give much more.

Are you sure this is good approach? Granted, there are lots of builds around that are terrible because they try to do little bit of everything (and end up doing nothing worthy), but i presonally love it when people have smart multifunctional builds.

For example, self heal or defensive skill that reduces dependancy on monks is welcome and usually decidive in critical situations.

Then again, that multifunctional self sufucient factor should benefit whole team, not only player itself. self heals, interupts, enchant/hex/condtion removals, definsive skills that also affect party mebmers, etc ... not all of it at once of course, but helthy combination of theese just makes ordinary party rock.

Servant of Kali · Jul 08, 2007, 01:04 PM // 13:04

No, just post the build. Energy Surge randomly put can harm more than actually be of use.

ps: zwei, i know what you're trying to say, i was speaking more generally. An extreme example would be a warrior who has condition removal, hex removal, block, heal, and damage. It's not gonna be much of a damage now is it

It's better to optimize; let monks do the healing, monks do condition removal (unless u can fit it in somehow), and you increase the dmg output insanely.